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Author Topic: The Islam in Europe Thread  (Read 74930 times)

Trooper Dan

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The Islam in Europe Thread
« on: October 09, 2007, 01:45:47 PM »
Even though I'm an American, I care about what happens in Europe, and in particular I'm concerned about Islam taking over European societies by means of uncontrolled immigration and force.  I know that many Europeans (some of them on this forum) bristle at this suggestion, and view it as a paranoid right-wing delusion.  So, if anyone is interested, I'd like to talk about it.

Here is a recent post from an American political blog about radical Islam in Holland and the failure of the Dutch to respond to it.  Do you agree or disagree?

Quote
When the Dutch Islamist Mohammad Bouyeri butchered Dutch film director Theo Van Gogh in response to a film by Van Gogh about the oppression of Muslim women, it seemed plausible to think the Dutch might finally awaken to the internal threat posed by Islamofascism, at least to the extent of rallying to defend their own free speech rights. Today, as  Anne Applebaum shows, it's no longer plausible to believe this.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Dutch-Somali politician, wrote the script for Van Gogh's film. The knife Bouyeri thrust into Van Gogh contained a death threat directed at Hirsi Ali. Even before this event, she had been under Dutch police protection. But last year, the Dutch government tried to revoke her citizenship. And last week, the government cut off her security funding. Currently, she lives in the U.S. under privately financed security protection. The Dutch are about to debate whether to resume funding.

How that debate turns out is probably immaterial. The fact that the Dutch are having this debate, instead of debating the quickest way to arrest and/or deport the Islamists who pose such a threat to their freedoms, tells me that the game is probably lost in Holland.
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KaiseR

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Re: The Islam in Europe Thread
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2007, 05:00:25 PM »
Well, France being the country of Europe with the biggest muslim percentage in its population (estimates vary between 5 and 10%, from what I gather, 6% seems to be the most reliable, not all of them having french citizenship), I think I can add my two cents.

If what is said in your quote is true (and I assume it is), then, I'm sorry to say the Dutch government "lowered his pants" as we say in France.
I don't know, but when France got attacked by a series of terrorist attacks in the middle of the 90s, the authorities didn't think for very long : they hunted down, found, and gunned down the 'brain' - Khaled Kelkal. Now we're fine. The plane the GIA wanted to crash in the Eiffel Tower did not even got north of Marseilles.

Still, the problem isn't very easy, as we often get caught by our own freedom values : France forbid hidjab in public schools, but some people say it's a right to wear the clothes we want, whatever the reasons are. Funnily enough, the same people don't seem to invoke that same concept of freedom when it comes to caricatures. They say it "insults the muslim people". When I was a teen, in what is (I believe) the equivalent of "MAD" in america, I read one comic where jesus christ himself was depressing and masturbated and did drugs and got assraped by jupiter (yeah, the roman god). Hilarious shit, but that's another matter. Nobody said anything about it ! The christians did not feel insulted, so on this subject, we can safely say there is a good margin of progression for the muslims.

Anyway, it seems to me that american people tend to fantasize about islam and such. While I'll certainly not deny there are quantity of lower subhuman scum who want to create some sort of big european panislamic nation, they remain ultraminoritary, and (call me leftist), the vast majority of muslims only want peace, work, raising their kids like any person. It's not hiding my head in the sand, it's not refusing to face facts, it's true : I know them, they are around me, I met a few personally, etc.

The fact remains that islamist groups hide here and there, and grow around poverty in defavorized suburbs. But the extremist elements must be treated with "extreme prejudice" (think Kelkal).

Another interesting thing I read some time ago (I don't remember if it was on paper, or on the web), was a poll conducted among muslim population in different countries of Europe. About america, israel, the jews, etc... I was glad (and somewhat surprised) to discover that french muslims were the more tolerant towards the US, christians, jews and all. I don't remember in which coutry they were the most hostile towards anything unislamic.

Another interesting subject is their provenance. Roughly, muslims in France mainly originate from North Africa, those in UK from Pakistan, those in Germany from Turkey. I don't know for the rest. This probably brings some cultural particularities. Like... 'Londonistan', perhaps ?

Now, on a world wide perspective, I read yesterday a book publicated by the Institute of Religions in France. Well, demography is interesting, and as opposite as to what I was thinking, the big winner of demographics will eventually be...


Jesus !


The guys predict that in 2050 75% of humanity will be christian. That is, if nothing like WWIII happens in between, d'uh.
The book says nothing about Europe in 2050 though. Only thing I know is, the christians seem to (try to) regain activity these days. I got quite a lot of leaflets about christian shit in my mailbox lately.

PS : Mmm, this is a LONG post

MSandt

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Re: The Islam in Europe Thread
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2007, 05:23:51 PM »
If what is said in your quote is true (and I assume it is)

You haven't heard about the case before this? Do you read newspapers/online news at all?

Btw, while the European model - as opposed to the American model - is a failure when it comes to social and economic policies the one thing these islamization prophets don't take into account is that there won't be any islamizations if living standards in the Middle-East and North-Africa improve. After all, you don't see many people immigrating from countries like Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain or the UAE. However, I wouldn't be very optimistic about Africa.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2007, 05:30:35 PM by MSandt »
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Geoffrey

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Re: The Islam in Europe Thread
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2007, 05:28:04 PM »
Quote
Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Dutch-Somali politician, wrote the script for Van Gogh's film. The knife Bouyeri thrust into Van Gogh contained a death threat directed at Hirsi Ali. Even before this event, she had been under Dutch police protection. But last year, the Dutch government tried to revoke her citizenship. And last week, the government cut off her security funding. Currently, she lives in the U.S. under privately financed security protection. The Dutch are about to debate whether to resume funding.

How that debate turns out is probably immaterial. The fact that the Dutch are having this debate, instead of debating the quickest way to arrest and/or deport the Islamists who pose such a threat to their freedoms, tells me that the game is probably lost in Holland.

That's terribly one-sided, she got "kicked out" of America too.
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MSandt

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Re: The Islam in Europe Thread
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2007, 05:37:25 PM »
That's terribly one-sided, she got "kicked out" of America too.

Yes, because the Dutch government wouldn't pay for her security. And she didn't get "kicked out" in the same sense as she did in the Netherlands where she was attacked by a fanatic holding a governmental position.
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"What is my joy if all hands, even the unclean, can reach into it? What is my wisdom, if even the fools can dictate to me? What is my freedom, if all creatures, even the botched and the impotent, are my masters? What is my life, if I am but to bow, to agree and to obey?"

KaiseR

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Re: The Islam in Europe Thread
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2007, 05:42:45 PM »
If what is said in your quote is true (and I assume it is)
You haven't heard about the case before this? Do you read newspapers/online news at all?

Oh yes, I have heard of it, I was referring to the problem about the funding of her protection, of which I was not aware.

Daedolon

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Re: The Islam in Europe Thread
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2007, 09:00:45 PM »
I'm personally afraid of all this. But I'm currently watching a movie so I can't really talk about it right now either.
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Trooper Dan

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Re: The Islam in Europe Thread
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2007, 10:04:01 PM »
I don't know, but when France got attacked by a series of terrorist attacks in the middle of the 90s, the authorities didn't think for very long : they hunted down, found, and gunned down the 'brain' - Khaled Kelkal. Now we're fine.

What about all the rioting in immigrant communities?  That may not be terrorism, but it's not what I would call "fine".  Your new President, Sarkozy, certainly thinks there is a serious problem.

Funnily enough, the same people don't seem to invoke that same concept of freedom when it comes to caricatures. They say it "insults the muslim people". When I was a teen, in what is (I believe) the equivalent of "MAD" in america, I read one comic where jesus christ himself was depressing and masturbated and did drugs and got assraped by jupiter (yeah, the roman god). Hilarious shit, but that's another matter. Nobody said anything about it !

I can assure you that Christians are very offended by that kind of thing.  But, unlike Muslims, they won't kill you for it.

But the extremist elements must be treated with "extreme prejudice" (think Kelkal).

We agree on that.

The guys predict that in 2050 75% of humanity will be christian. That is, if nothing like WWIII happens in between, d'uh.

This contradicts data that I have seen, so I'd like to know how he arrives at that.
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Trooper Dan

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Re: The Islam in Europe Thread
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2007, 10:06:02 PM »
Quote
Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Dutch-Somali politician, wrote the script for Van Gogh's film. The knife Bouyeri thrust into Van Gogh contained a death threat directed at Hirsi Ali. Even before this event, she had been under Dutch police protection. But last year, the Dutch government tried to revoke her citizenship. And last week, the government cut off her security funding. Currently, she lives in the U.S. under privately financed security protection. The Dutch are about to debate whether to resume funding.

How that debate turns out is probably immaterial. The fact that the Dutch are having this debate, instead of debating the quickest way to arrest and/or deport the Islamists who pose such a threat to their freedoms, tells me that the game is probably lost in Holland.

That's terribly one-sided, she got "kicked out" of America too.

What are you talking about?  She hasn't been kicked out of America at all.  She's still here, and she's being protected by Americans.
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Geoffrey

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Re: The Islam in Europe Thread
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2007, 10:18:41 PM »
oh woops

That's what I get for just skimming through the morning paper instead of actually reading it, I got confused by that Denmark news.
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Sang

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Re: The Islam in Europe Thread
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2007, 11:36:43 PM »
I'm personally afraid of all this.

Yeah, tbh I think many people are (not necessarily anyone on this forum but I think there are certainly many people who fear the islam).. I can't blame them though, if you look at what happened after that small Danish Mohammed cartoon it's not too far-fetched (but still irrational) to think that as soon as one has criticism on the islam, they well get attacked by terrorists or fundamentalists.

Of course the point I'm trying to make is not an argument in an actual political debate but I'm just looking at it from a "social" down-to-earth point of view and at least some people I know aren't exactly at ease when they are around immigrants..
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KaiseR

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Re: The Islam in Europe Thread
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2007, 11:42:16 PM »
What about all the rioting in immigrant communities? That may not be terrorism, but it's not what I would call "fine".  Your new President, Sarkozy, certainly thinks there is a serious problem.

These riots were not motivated by religious reasons at all. This is at least the conclusion of the report by the RG (some kind of french super police/intelligence, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_civil_unrest_in_France). It was motivated by a huge feeling of frustration in those well known defavorized suburbs around french cities. There has undoubtedly been a try from islamists to instrumentalize it, but its impact was very limited. The history of these suburbs began after WWII, when France welcomed hundred of thousands of immigrants from its colonies to rebuild the country. They were parked in these big concrete cities, isolated from the towns, and all this has been left rotting since then (lots of these places still are isolated : no public transportation, when lots of those people are too poor to own cars). Before someone calls me a leftist, I'm only explaining a mechanical consequence on human behavior. They were still wrong to riot, I'm not justifying anything. It's about the same thing as the black riots in LA (in the 80s, am I right ?).
I was saying 'fine' about terrorism. On a more global matter, oh my, we're not fine at all, but that would be a very long story.

Quote
I can assure you that Christians are very offended by that kind of thing.  But, unlike Muslims, they won't kill you for it.

Well, maybe our christians aren't the same than yours. One of my best buddies goes to the church every Sunday. He perfectly knows my views about religion, and any crude joke I can say about Jesus makes him laugh like a normal person. But I admit my example might be... extreme, and anyway you're right to say christians won't kill for that (after centuries of doing it they finally got bored).

Quote
This contradicts data that I have seen, so I'd like to know how he arrives at that.

It also contradicts what I had thought for long. The guy is a journalist specialized about religions, named Henri Tincq. He says that the growth will mainly come from third world countries, Africa, South America. The center of Christianity will leave the Europe/US axis (says Tincq).

But, I have another estimate saying for 2050 :
3,052 billion christians
2,229 billion muslims
1,175 billion hinduists
0,425 billion buddhists
0,017 jews
(doesn't mention other religions)
It's far from 75%, but still...

May I ask what your data predicts ?

Trooper Dan

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Re: The Islam in Europe Thread
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2007, 01:20:08 AM »
There has undoubtedly been a try from islamists to instrumentalize it, but its impact was very limited.

It may be true that individual rioters are not motivated by religion, but the fact remains that the rioting occurs in areas that are predominantly Muslim.  The larger concern is that the laws of France tend to be supplanted in these areas by some version of Islamic law.  One of the worst aspects of the isolation of these communities is that it makes it easier for radicals to wield influence in them.  I do think there is similarity between black riots in America and the riots in France, and in both cases there are radicals who brainwash the youth with a violent ideology that takes the place of society's normal values.  In both cases, the problem is ongoing and serious.  Riots are only one symptom of the problem.

Well, maybe our christians aren't the same than yours. One of my best buddies goes to the church every Sunday. He perfectly knows my views about religion, and any crude joke I can say about Jesus makes him laugh like a normal person. But I admit my example might be... extreme, and anyway you're right to say christians won't kill for that (after centuries of doing it they finally got bored).

Most people in America who describe themselves as Christians would probably consider European Christians to be "Christian Lite".  As for getting bored of killing...the blatant double-standard, whereby it's okay to say anything you want about Christianity, but it's not okay to offend Islam, is making a lot of Christians very angry.  If you want to see a bloody world war where everyone is forced to take a side with one religion or the other, a good way to help bring that about is to perpetuate the double-standard until the Christians become militant again.  There are lots of examples of the double-standard, by the way, not just limited to cartoons (most of the examples I am familiar with are in the U.S. not Europe).  My view is that people should have the right to say whatever they want about any religion without fear of violence, and that the government should not endorse any religion, either explicitly or implicitly.

May I ask what your data predicts ?

I have to get ready for work, so I can't do a data presentation right now (I'll try to find time later).  One thing to note, though, is that pretty much everyone (including Tincq) agrees that Caucasians will be a shrinking percentage of the world population, and a shrinking percentage of the population in countries where Caucasians have historically been a majority.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2007, 01:21:57 AM by DeeperThought »
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KaiseR

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Re: The Islam in Europe Thread
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2007, 02:09:09 AM »
Riots are only one symptom of the problem.
Well said.

Quote
Most people in America who describe themselves as Christians would probably consider European Christians to be "Christian Lite".
Lol, I love that one :) Roman catholics are "Christian lite" :mellow: (y)

Quote
the blatant double-standard, whereby it's okay to say anything you want about Christianity, but it's not okay to offend Islam, is making a lot of Christians very angry.
Actually, it make atheists (like urr, me) angry as well. Still, when having a christian cultural background, it's easier to make fun of christianity, because people know better the religion and its flaws. It might sound stupid, but it's true. Doesn't excuse anything, but I think it explains at least partially why the most mocked religion in Europe and US is christianism.

Quote
My view is that people should have the right to say whatever they want about any religion without fear of violence, and that the government should not endorse any religion, either explicitly or implicitly.
Most people here will agree on this I guess. Do you know that a politician here (forgot the name of the sorry bastard, he is from UMP, Sarkozy's fan club) wanted to reinstaure the offence of blasphemy ? Fortunately, people threw so much tomatoes at him, he prefered to shut the fuck up.

Quote
I have to get ready for work, so I can't do a data presentation right now (I'll try to find time later).  One thing to note, though, is that pretty much everyone (including Tincq) agrees that Caucasians will be a shrinking percentage of the world population, and a shrinking percentage of the population in countries where Caucasians have historically been a majority.
Well, that's not a surprise to anyone. Most western countries have plumetting birthrates.

Trooper Dan

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Re: The Islam in Europe Thread
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2007, 02:58:56 AM »
Quote
Most people in America who describe themselves as Christians would probably consider European Christians to be "Christian Lite".
Lol, I love that one :) Roman catholics are "Christian lite" :mellow: (y)

Hey, I never said that American Christians were well-informed...
The fact is, though, that the majority of American Christians do not consider the Pope to be the ultimate authority.  They are Protestants, and I'm sure they would disagree with Roman catholics on many issues.

Here is a link to a population projection that is at odds with the one you cited. 

http://www.wnrf.org/cms/next200.shtml

According to this projection, in the year 2025, Christians will comprise about 35% of the total population, and Muslims about 20%.  On the face of it, this seems much more plausible, because it counts nonreligious people and other religions such as Hindu and Budhism as significant percentages of the population, which we know they are.  To get 75% Christian by 2050, the other religions and atheists would have to shrink very fast.  Anyway, I'm not especially interested in the question of how the overall world population breaks down along religious lines.  A more pertinant question for me is how the populations of developed nations (specifically, the U.S. and countries in Europe) will be changing during this century, and what effects that will have on our lives and the future of the world.
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